ah, ah hello and welcome to cross stock where all things are considered. i am peter lavelle. on this addition to the program, we discussed the ongoing nato, russia pensions. we ask, what is nato strategy also, what is russia's strategy dealing with nato eastward expansion? and what are the likely outcomes for both? i cross sucking nato russia. tensions. i'm joined by my guess, charl shoe bridge in london. he's a security analyst and former u. k. army and counterterrorism intelligence officer in washington, we have michael maloof. he is a former pentagon senior security policy analyst, and here in moscow we have alexi. now he is an expert at the russia council on international affairs as well as chief editor at r t t dot com. all right,

general in cross hoc rules and effect that music and jumping any time you want. and i always appreciate, let's go to charles 1st in london. and i'm really sick and tired of all the misinformation and propaganda that is being spewed about these growing tensions. there are tensions, there's no doubt about that. okay. but, and how they're being characterized is really important for us on this program to set straight. so charles, i asked 3 questions in my introduction. what, what, what is, what is nato up to? what is the gambit here is that they have to continued expanding to be relevant. i mean, what is it american hegemony? because it's picking a needless fight with russia. go ahead, charles, why would you have this guy perennial? is she really of a future? of course, ever since the cold war it's been costing around for road. it has to remind relevance and a full of course. in the background of old, our considerations, it always has to be borne in mind that there is

a massive incentive motivating factor for nato and those that speak for it. remember, there are many in the media that speak for nato, whether declared or undeclared, through the vested interest, through funding of think tanks and so on from nato. and from the, the what might be quality for the leak mobility, the military industrial complex, in terms of ramping up tension. so incentive is constantly needful, ever more weapons purchases. this is another story of course, and we, we know that very well. and there's a company that's always going to be the backdrop to these kind of discussions and these kind of situations there is tension, but there's been tension study since 2014, when of course, the government, if you claim which are the threat. and of course, sam democratically elected government, we should say, of course i was led to detention the situation that we're currently in. i think that you are fed added to the way that the media is reporting at sent in the last.

and that's absolutely wrong. but let's not forget that again, really, it's not just on a daily basis now that we're telecon innovation is going to take place in the us, of course, out from russia to ukraine. that's been happening now for the last 2 to 3 months. but really on, on a daily basis. but if we think about a week, your monthly basis, we've really been told by the same newspapers and television outlets in the west that russia is going to invade almost done a week. he'll much to basis. and of course, none of that has come to pass, but what i would out on that respect is in that respect to stop. that doesn't necessarily and not play well for the russian hand as well. because off to russia to west are involved in a negotiation at the end of the day, much of that is behind the scene, but much grace tied out on the airwaves and cleanings cost is far honest. and certainly those in the west and that agenda are ramping up. the tension may actually work in rushes. frazier at the moment. in other words, you've got a situation where the west media are actually probably over 70. that's actually how

congress, she's course because our strengths in the hand of moscow, into negotiations, in the sense that they are heightening detention and making the fear of a possible candidate seem ever more real. and of course not any russia, but also at the end of the day, the west including, i think most of the people come see push for attention. most of those people are not seeking. of course, a general rule. you know, michael, it, it seems to me, you know, this is a game of brinkman's ship in a way, and i'm really glad that charles stressed the media element of it because the media is egging it on. ok, and, and they want to see who's going to blink 1st. i mean it's, it's, it's, you know, these are issues of war and peace and, and not just a political game of scoring points here. but we, this is where we are here. i mean, the way i look at it is a nato, and it's, it's genetic code. if it doesn't expand, it disappears because it ends up being a paper. tiger. i mean, if you look at it militarily, it's an empty tusk. i mean,

it really doesn't have any it real capacity and whatever american capacity there is in europe. well, it's quite limited to and it's not for a mission like this here. so, i mean, i hope charles is right, that there are a lot more negotiations going on. but michael, i have to stress to our viewers. this has been going on for 30 years, and the russians have della grabbed very, very clearly. that what they're going to do and what they will tolerate and what they won't tolerate. i mean, i don't understand blanket or maybe we should have another chit chat or, you know, stilton burke, you know, and on his endless, i'm babbling going on. this is real. this is real and it's really meeting us rate right here in the present. and i just don't think the west takes it very seriously . i hope i'm wrong, michael. go ahead. yeah, i think i think you're absolutely correct peter. this, this is mind boggling. nato is once again looking for its new mission since the end of the cold war. and it's basically

a di and dinosaur. and what they're trying to do is resuscitate this, this, this enigma as much as possible in a way that it's bringing on brinkman's ship. and mr. has made a very clear what the red line is. and it is. you got, you got the west coming halfway around the world, up to the russian federation. whereas is mr. and put it, there's nowhere else for the russians to go and they are on their own soil. and i, even though the west is agitated and you've got to consider the, the media itself, it is a, it is a tool of, of the, by the ministration and the, and the west to, to push its narrative of, of the evil empire of russia. and, and to stoke that in order to continue its larger plan of,

of containment, of russia and, and also to basically get more dollars for, for defense spending. i would, this is how they justify their existence. but it, but the, it's very clear to me that the nato is, has gone, is pushing it up to the brink. there are, there are ways that they can settle this down a little bit. but i think mr. newton has made it very clear. and the media somehow just doesn't believe it unless there is a problem. my concern is that because of this encouragement by the west, you're going to see elements with in ukraine, historically neo nazi group. so such as the as off battalion pushing this and actually creating their own black fat flag operation in order to bring in order to instigate an attack that will then prompt a response. and then we're,

we're in touch once you start this thing, it's very, very difficult to stop a war, a stop, a conflict because it can spread very quickly. and i, and i'm very concerned that ah, elements such as we see it inside of ukraine are really agitated. to do this and it could just drag us into a conflict, but neither side really wants exactly. you know, and i'm, i'm really glad that you and charles and reminded us of the griffin element of this and weapons and all of that, alex a, let me re go to you. i mean, that the general secretary soleberg of nato. he said the following allies on their side reaffirm nato's open door policy and the right for each nation to choose its own security arrangements. except for russia apparently, i mean, this is, is patently absurd. it is hypocrisy that stinks to high heaven. everybody can do it except for russia. i mean, it is, there is no self reflection here, or is this dis,

the institution is fighting to continue to exist and waste billions and billions of dollars a year on generating a threat. that is it really there? well, it is now your are up to the border. you know, somebody's gotta do something. the status quo will not stand alexei well, i think, yeah, i think you're right in the, in the way that really surprised me when secretary of lincoln said that like every, every country has the freedom to its own alliances. but when russia expressed an idea of maybe try trying to deploy military assets to cube or venezuela, he reacted by saying that the u. s. will react decisively react swiftly or something along those lines. so what i think it's happening is the native is trying to justify its own existence because nato, as we know, it was created for 3 purposes. depending western europe against soviet aggression. there is no soviet union anymore. it was created to bring together rival powers of

france, germany, the u. k. they're not big rivals anymore. and it was created to keep americans inside the european politics, which did not happen after the world war one. so all of these aimed all these goals are actually obsolete. europe was trying to get on foothold in europe, trying to decide its own faith. trying to basically have a role in the international politics. and, and they don't, is, is us, is, is a, basically, is not helping right now. it's not helping anyone. it's dragging the us and europe into another war. it's trying to deny russia film right for her don't security. and it's basically not helping anyone at this point. and i think what we see as historic, historic moment, where we can have the sol russia, as you have correctly said, russia have been saying the same thing as we say the same things were 20 or 30 years. but now it's the 1st time the west actually listed as the russia and what it

took, as is a massing hundreds of thousands of russian troops on the russian border. so, you know, it's, it's not a sign of, of an alliance that is helpful. and that is to listen, it is a sign of alliance that is in decline, as in the constant search for its own reason of exist. we're going fast coming on the break. charles, is it possible to have pan european security without russia? because that's exactly when they goes trying to do charles? yes, you're right. of course it's hard to that needs to be taken into consideration. i mean, it's the major security factor external factor according to notate, but other, say, i disagree and also having to walk on the other speakers have set up the another reason, perhaps an h i t be constantly casting around for this new role in uniform. mission is the internal fractures within itself. a search, right?

it's future perhaps something that we can come to more depth. ok gentlemen, i'm going to jump in here. we're going to go to a short break, and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on nato rush. attention. stay with our team. ah, yes me. i did meet with you, lisa. typical. there's only 9, but already university students that away and flash a new month appointment. let's see. yep. you've got the stores padilla a . do you know which of the he may come from? no recalls with them. well, you're special, but i was the yeah. my but i think it what the plan was to get on the she was

a new mom. she's in this, i'm doing that with his teacher was all reason this one is a good oh, is your media reflection of reality? ah, in a world transformed what will make you feel safer, high selection, whole community. are you going the right way? where are you being led somewhere? direct. what is true? wharf is great. in the world corrupted,

you need to descend a join us in the depths. or remain in the shallows. there may or may, we should all be may or may, we should all be angry or what's going on, right. we can't understand united states history and the role that slavery plate is already a very formal institution. by the time united states became a nation, it actually find the nation, the rise of capitalism clearly on the backs of slate and the slave down. if you had investigated lynching any great extent, you can't believe that a country and country still stands in brick. i'm from the south. everybody know, know what this thing to some extent. i would argue that we're still fighting the

civil war. and the south is winning for driven by drainage shaped banks control center. those with there's sinks ah, we dare to ask in ah, welcome back to cross stock where all things are considered. i'm peter labelle tremendous. we're discussing nato rush attentions. i

okay, is go back to michael in washington. you know michael, in my introduction and as i left the 1st block and came into the 2nd block here. i never mentioned ukraine because it's not about ukraine. ok. this is the thing that really irritates me about western policy makers, the think tanks and media and all this. this is about european security structures . ok, and this is what the russians, when they sent 2 documents, one to nato, one to the united states, not to the e. u. okay, to do to decision makers. ultimately, the decision maker is in washington. and it's about how to create a security structure in which all states are given security. this is something that nato does not confidence. they. they say that, that mama, no one came to have a veto over nato membership. well, that doesn't make any sense at all. russia, is it in the nato club? so why should it obey its rules? okay, is, is absolutely nonsensical. there's nothing historically relevant to that statement

that no one can have a veto. now, it does how it's threatening your security. you're going to be to all you want plus more. go ahead, michael. yeah, i think your, your analysis is correct. it's, it's, it's, this is something much larger than just ukraine, right? this is the, the di and spirit of the u. s. leadership, a u. s. role as the leader of a world order that has seen its own demise. and nato is just 11 aspect of this, and what, what this, with this threat of decoupling russia from swift and from the western financial system that, that is, that is, has actually given the impetus for the, who are russia and china and others to consider multi polar world order in which they develop their own independence financial system. and that seems to be rolling

right along as well as creating through the belt road initiative. a whole economic environment separate from the west. and you're seeing that, given the fracture within the e u, and with a nato that they're seeing that the us leadership role generally has diminished and they are shifting more that way. that's why you're not seeing the unified position right now within nato, toward this ukraine incident. and toward russia as a whole because of that dependency and inter interrelationship, that exists and they are, and you're not going to and i think that this is something that moscow can play off on in going to individual members. i mean, who is going to be afraid of a date, danish warship? nobody and, and it's, it's in the, in the broad scheme of things. but it, this is a much larger thing of neo conservatives within the,

by the administration. trying to push this narrative again of containment of russia and to and to try to keep alive it's allusion that it is the leader of the so called free world, whatever that means. and this is now coming to a head when you're coming up with an actual threat. and i think at the end of the proverbial day unless someone starts something independently, as i pointed out a little earlier, i think you're going to see a back in off a little bit of us just us insistence. we saw this just yesterday and biden's news conference when he said, well, if there's just an incursion, it's not as bad as an invasion. and you have the white house quickly having to correct him correcting the president united states. i mean that it's like what, what the president meant to say was and it has sent them, it has sent some, some serious reverberations here in this country. frankly,

it's like general milly calling his chinese counterpart saying they were all stable . everything's okay here. i mean, the state craft of the elite in the us and nato, it's just unbelievable. i'd like to point out also, michael mccomb francis taking over the rotating presidency of the you. he's got some overtures, the german chancellor. also, we are doing this and then you know, you're not on the same page, get back in the law and get back to the, the fraction you're talking about is very, we'll allow alexi. let me get, let me ask you, i mean, you know, we have started berg nato is just a defensive alliance. i mean, you know, hit the f one and that's what he says. it's speed dial for this guy here. ok? but i mean, if you have a huge military alliance led by the united states, you're sitting right on your border. they may deploy advance missile systems. how, why, how in the world can you define that as a defensive alliance? go ahead to like say, well, especially when you consider that nato acted as an offensive alliance and li be

offensive alliance, and syria is active. an offensive alliance when he's been creeping towards rushing waters for, for the last 30 years. this is the, the, what else you know, the problem with inside the minds of mr. sullivan burgundy, site nato. i made a functionaries that they actually do not understand what nato is for. they'd understand with nato is all about and they can never grasp what nato is. when it's viewed through, through the fruits in russia, west of the russian ice, russian perspective. and that is the problem that they're stuck in this cold war mentality, the mentality, they stock, their 2nd this and this mentality that is dictated by its own charter that as well . it says here in the document that it is a defensive alliance. how can it be offensive alive? and yet that is, that is the problem that we have. and that is a problem. i hope it can be solved by us, actually by us, by russia,

actually talking to nato and making this point across, you know, guys, ok, you are defensive, but take a look through this russian lance. maybe it's not as simple as you may made. sounds . so i think, yeah, it's, i mean, even if you talk, but i want to you, alexei, all chance. yeah. like say no, no, but the europe you're absolutely right. and we can tear a page from the cold war because during the cold war, both sides looked at it to the lens of the other and say, oh i got, i see your point. ok. i thought we got arms control agreements. okay. with communism is coming to an end. it's an, it may be an ideological complex, but it's only coming from one side. michael in watching you want to jump in here. we don't have a respect, michael, you want to jump in and washington? yeah, i was just going to say that it is, it is, natal describes herself as a defensive alliance, but it has nuclear weapons on european soil and, and in turkey i how, how defensive is that every $100.00 that's,

that's often so that is offensive. and with these missiles and mr. brewton has every right to be concerned with their advancement of these missiles, a defensive missile can easily be made into an off of missile. i don't know what they're talking about. well, it's michael leslie. oh, good. they did. what look good nato did embrace the legal breakup of yugoslavia, the destruction of libya, and it's a defensive alliance. okay, this is nonsense, charles. let me go to you. there's a way out here and i think there's the, that the problem is, is that nato, it doesn't want to see a win win one has to win and must one. the other one must lose. that's their approach to this. ok. but charles, we have the example um, austrian neutrality. we had the example of finland ization of finland. i mean that these are not new ideas. charles and everybody could win. why don't not? they can't, can't they even conceive of this? because his ada called appeasement. it's munich all over again. why are they stuck in this mind? said, go ahead charles on it on i looted to this. hopefully,

the fact that behind the scenes negotiation to taking place it, a lot of this is in public, which as we've discussed is one of the main problems here because it encourages brinkman's ship. and also means that people tend to paint themselves into a colon. is that funded and funded difficult to extricate themselves from this, and this is particular so on the west side, when we say largely because as we discussed the road of the mainstream media and in exacerbating those tensions. but really, i think the problem comes where people then put forward positions publicly that and then become red line. santa can't be negotiated away because after when we're in a negotiation, people are always going to put forward presumably more than they might expect to get. for example, an indicator of ukraine, which lamps that you write that is about fall more than you kind of dog. will select emphasize at my cause any point that the fact that there is these whites pretensions anyway. and he's institutional issues between nature and within nature itself and nato's relations with the outside world. that mean those tensions can

easily be exploited for the benefit of sectional groups. and some of those are cuz we did, you kind of south, we seen that and that's absolutely been the case like last 23 months. and al, kimberly, over the last 8 years that those tensions exploited for a very local er benefits. and of course, and, and that's in cultures tensions to exist. but we might find it, for example, in the case of ukraine, that some compromise might be possible. because that is a common flash point and it stays a posse flash point. for example, russia has set out it's red lines that should be known and to membership that should be no troops deployed notes on that. that should be great limits on exercises with informa, warsaw pact, countries that already within they take, i suspect some of those red lines will be, were turned out to be flexible. some of them, as indeed will be, some of the demons, not necessarily nature because nature, as you say,

always pushes for a 0 sum game, whereas you've got biden, i think it's a bit more shrewd often and he's not, but i think in this case it's, i think into stance and as indeed recently met slip when he talked about that if there was an incursion, presumably into your crime, vendor response might not be as bad as if there was a, from an invasion. so he's already made that distinction and he's or so of course, inadvertently or perhaps deliberately reveal at those divisions that exist between the western allies and particular patching himself and what nato itself would actually want. and so consequently at every so i think room for compromise, and at some point i that will hopefully be cheap. but we need to be aware that there are those vested interests always behind the scenes. and absolutely, i would agree that within you kind especially there are interests who do not want whatsoever got compromised to be reached at the lawson they want is a movement of that to a flash point that currently exists in eastern parts of ukraine, micheal,

and that we have 50 seconds left here, isn't it that kind of ironic to you that the more the west helps their ukranian friends, the smaller ukraine gets, you have the illegal code and they lose crimea. and then these attack the don bass to don bass leaves. i mean, how much smaller is ukraine? good. again, because of friendship with nato. got 40 seconds my what i said. yeah. i think i think people are beginning to realize going to war over ukraine. what is in our national interest? what is that we just pull? we've been engaged in war since 2001. and what, what does ukraine offer us in terms of national security? it's more of a european issue, but europeans are creating their own problem unless they, they do as your other folks have said. begin to understand and realize that there can be flexibility built in give especially when you come right up to the brink. i think at the and of the proverbial day. unless someone instigates something from

within, i, ukraine that you will see more flexibility. and if not, then i think you're going to see russia doing much more proactive make legitimacy breakers read, man, maybe will read, be convening next week to see how this is moving on here we have that's all the time. we have gentleman. many thanks am i guess in london, washington, and here in moscow. and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at ortiz, see you next time. remember crosstalk with ah, is the earth still large enough to satisfy the ambitions of jeff bezos? you know, it's that its tentacles in so many aspects of the economy. there's nothing that amazon isn't trying to get into to step by step. the amazon empire has extended its

group on the world that walks like a dog in quacks like a dog gets a dog. so amazon looks like monopoly trades like a monopoly makes money like monopoly behaves like monopoly. amazon essentially controls the market place. it's not really a market, it's a private arena, a world where a single company controls the distribution of all day. the products and the infrastructure of our economy is loose. the wound, according to amazon, as inflation increases, these stories, the rhetoric, the explanations, the justifications will get more and more bizarre banner, because there's nothing in the, in the playbook for a mainstream media to explain and place them because they been hold for 20 years. now that there is no inflation, that there's only deflation, and the need to keep printing money to stop the profit of the possibility of, of

a deflationary spiral. a useful meeting with a candidate exchange of opinions at a critical moment that style the russian u. s. foreign policy chief describe their talk things geneva, which color made arising tensions of ukraine and length of expansion with it's enough to scroll through a couple of random pages to be sure, none of the provisions stand up to any critical analysis. in many cases, it is simply a like a news conference after the talk. so i got off the lashes out at us officials and mainstream media pushing fresh on proving claims against moscow. what examine it was a little late to the south.